Dear podcast listeners, it’s never too late to become a runner!
We encourage you to tune into this conversation to understand why. One of the most common misconceptions we hear about aging (and running) is that you’re bound to have more pain and injuries as you get older so it’s not wise to start a higher impact sport like running in your golden years. Let’s just get this myth cleared up right away by saying “there’s NO evidence to support this!” Furthermore, recent literature suggests that habitual bouncing on your joints (like running) is actually protective for your joints against the progression of arthritis. More on that topic in future podcasts. But for today, we’re focused on 1 runner and 1 very special running race.
The Boston Marathon is one of the most esteemed running races in the world. Very few get to qualify for the opportunity to compete, and even fewer will stand on the podium at the finish line.
We sit down with John Hieb to discuss his experience in starting running later in life, as well as training to compete amongst the best in the world at the Boston Marathon the last couple of years.
John’s story is inspiring, to say the least! And it showcases just what the human body is capable of when you treat it well, and progress your training wisely. We hope this inspires you to continue to believe that you can still be active and healthy at ANY age!
Highlights from this talk include:
If you want more information about Peak Performance Care, please visit our website at www.peakperformancecare.com.
Dear podcast listeners, it’s never too late to become a runner!
We encourage you to tune into this conversation to understand why. One of the most common misconceptions we hear about aging (and running) is that you’re bound to have more pain and injuries as you get older so it’s not wise to start a higher impact sport like running in your golden years. Let’s just get this myth cleared up right away by saying “there’s NO evidence to support this!” Furthermore, recent literature suggests that habitual bouncing on your joints (like running) is actually protective for your joints against the progression of arthritis. More on that topic in future podcasts. But for today, we’re focused on 1 runner and 1 very special running race.
The Boston Marathon is one of the most esteemed running races in the world. Very few get to qualify for the opportunity to compete, and even fewer will stand on the podium at the finish line.
We sit down with John Hieb to discuss his experience in starting running later in life, as well as training to compete amongst the best in the world at the Boston Marathon the last couple of years.
John’s story is inspiring, to say the least! And it showcases just what the human body is capable of when you treat it well, and progress your training wisely. We hope this inspires you to continue to believe that you can still be active and healthy at ANY age!
Highlights from this talk include:
If you want more information about Peak Performance Care, please visit our website at www.peakperformancecare.com.
INTRO: Welcome to the "Simple Solutions for Health Podcast." We're glad you're here. This show is dedicated to helping you live your healthy active lifestyle with more confidence, more knowledge and more optimism. We bring you stories of what's working now for our clients, as well as new concepts and evolving knowledge in the field of healthcare. We are here to empower you to get the most out of life every day with tools you already have. Now, here are your host doctors, Doctors Ellora and Kevin Maggs.
Dr. Ellora Maggs: All right. Hi, everyone. We're here today with John Heib, a local Calavera County runner, who we've known for many, many years, and we wanted to take a moment to highlight him and his success story within our Peak Performance Care Community. John's an excellent example of somebody who's thriving and is active in healthy lifestyle and is, you know, meeting all the goals that he sets for himself. And I just thought it would be a really great thing to hear his story, maybe inspire some people who are wanting to meet their goals but might feel like, "Oh, I'm too old for it, or, oh, I can't do that anymore." And I just think you're a perfect example of how to do it well, and I can't wait to share your story with everyone. So, welcome back to Peak Performance Care, John.
John: Thank you.
Dr. Ellora Maggs: I also want...for the audience who might not be familiar with running, I want to just give a little bit of background with what the Boston Marathon is all about. Dr. Kevin Maggs here is running a specialty clinic for over 20 years and has helped many professional and amateur athletes accomplish their Boston dreams. So, tell us a little bit more about Boston Marathon and what that means, and, you know, maybe what John just achieved here.
Dr. Kevin Maggs: Yeah. So, for those who aren't familiar with the Boston Marathon, you can sign up for any marathon, you know, in the country and do it. But Boston is a special race that you have to qualify for. You have to meet a certain time goal for different age groups in order to qualify to be able to do Boston. I ran 10 marathons and I was never able to qualify for Boston because I was just never that good. So, it's the elite marathoners who are able to run Boston. And the interesting thing about Boston, it's not just the U.S, it's like worldwide, right? Like, people...if you look at the people who finished Boston, it's just a conglomeration of different countries around the world. And it's really hard to qualify to get into Boston in and of itself.
Dr. Ellora Maggs: So, this year, I mean, we're celebrating John because he placed third this year, which is a big feat. And we're gonna go into the details of all of that, but it was your...
John: In my age group.
Dr. Ellora Maggs: In your age group. Yes. Yeah. Yes. But that's...
John: You gotta say that.
Dr. Ellora: But that's how it's measured so...
Dr. Kevin Maggs: But considering, like, very few people actually run a marathon in their life anyway. And those who do, very few of those will qualify to be able to get into Boston. And when you get into Boston and you finished third in your age group, you're pretty much third best in the world at the marathon in your age group, which is a heck of an accomplishment.
John: Well, because most of my competition has passed away.
Dr. Ellora Maggs: Well, that's the benefit of running when you're older, right?
John: That's it.
Dr. Ellora Maggs: So, we'd love to ask you a few questions and just, you know, hear your story and let you tell it in your own words because we just think you're phenomenal and we're really proud of you and everything that you've accomplished and wanted to give you a platform to share your story. So, you haven't always been a runner, right? When did you start running?
John: I started running 11 years ago when I was 61, and in 2011.
Dr. Ellora Maggs: What inspired you to start running?
John: Well, my daughter, Lisa, in 2011, in the summer of 2011, said that she was going to be training for an Ironman competition. And she said as part of that training, she was going to run the California International Marathon. And that was coming up in December of 2011. And then she said something like, "Dad, you should run up with me." And I'm thinking, "I know how far a marathon is, that's 26.2 miles. That's a long way for somebody's outta shape." But I said, "Lisa, I know you really want me to do it and I'm gonna start training tomorrow."
Dr. Ellora Maggs: That's awesome.
John: That's what inspired me.
Dr. Ellora Maggs: That's love right there.
DR. Kevin Maggs: [inaudible 00:04:30] inspired by his daughter. Love it.
John: Just had to do it.
Dr. Ellora Maggs: That's great. And the rest is history, I guess. So, obviously, you've now had...over these 11 years, you've made up for lost time. You've done a lot of running in these last 11 years. And what are three things that you know now as a very accomplished runner that you wish you'd known then when you first started running?
John: Well, the most important thing, Ellora, is that I wish I'd known the importance of a good running training program because that's the key to not getting injured. And the whole thing, whenever I come in to see you guys, both of you stressed, the first thing is, "Don't get injured." And so, this is why a good training program geared toward my goals and my physical condition at the time would've been so important, which I didn't have. Also, I think the importance of a good strength training program, which I had no idea how that could keep me injury-free and how I could increase my mileage by staying injury-free. Didn't know anything about that. And also, a circuit training program where I exercised my whole body with basic exercises, very important. And also one other thing, the importance of a good pair of running shoes. So, I wish I had known those things when I started.
Dr. Ellora Maggs: Very good. Well, there are three important things. And I think the one, I think everybody understands the importance of, like, if you're gonna run a marathon, I think a lot of people think, "Okay, I need to get on a training plan for that." Not all training plans are created equal. And one of the things that I know we've had so many discussions over the years, both of us with you is finding the one that's right for you and finding your own ability to assess where you are to know on any given day, is this the right mileage for me to do today, and listening to your body.
So, yeah, I think that those are great things that any new runner, if you're considering running, like, heed the advice. Figure out the training plan, figure out your strengthening and your circuit training and figure out what shoes are best for you. There's no best running shoe. We get this question all the time in here of, like, what's the best running shoe? And that really is an individual choice. And we rarely will change a runner's shoe if at all possible. Our choice is always to try to keep runners in the shoe that they like and they love whether it might be the best one for them or not. There's strategic things we can do with that, but it's very individualized. So, don't take any advice globally about this is the best running shoe. That's usually a marketing ploy more than the truth.
Dr. Kevin Maggs: Back to John's first statement about, like, don't get injured. That was our big advice. The reason that we say that is if there's one thing that's gonna sabotage your progress in terms of becoming a better runner, it's sitting on the bench for a while, right? If you're going through a training program and you're too aggressive with the training program beyond, like, you're applying load to the tissues that's beyond the capacity of the tissues and you haven't allowed time for the tissue to adapt, then you're gonna be injured.
And then when you're injured, you're taking three weeks, four weeks, two months off, and you can never expect to progress your capabilities as a runner when you're on the sideline. So, it is just a much better strategy to progress slowly and listen to your body. And then that will help immensely in preventing injuries, is just listen to your body and progressing slowly.
John: Most definitely.
Dr. Ellora Maggs: So, let's flip that just a little bit. So, those are some things that you wish you'd known earlier. There's a lot of myths about running floating around out there. So, what are three myths that you think you wish people knew were not true about running?
John: Well, when people find out that...friends and so on, when people find out that I've been running the Boston Marathon at 72 years old, one of the first comments that a lot of people make, they look at my knees and they say in a voice, something like this, "What about your knees?" And I say, "My knees are stronger and feel better than they have in many years." And also they say, "Yeah, but you know, your age, what about your age?" What do I tell these folks? I say, "You know, running that Boston Marathon, I realize that it has 5 miles of hills in the last half of that marathon, including the last hill, we just call it the heartbreak hill, which is three-quarters of a mile long."
Every year, I look at the results of the Boston Marathon, I wanna see how many people over 80 years old finish that race. They're up over heartbreak hill and heading down into Boston to finish that race. And that's actually bringing tears to my eyes right now because these people are doing it at 80 and over 80, and I'm hoping that I can be there with them someday. And I really don't know if you're ever too old to run.
Dr. Ellora Maggs: Absolutely.
John: Maybe, you know, maybe back off if your age gets to triple digits, maybe back off a little bit. But I think that, you know, what I've seen with my own body and adjustments with Kevin and Ellora, you guys have got me on this program where I'm amazed at how, you know, things have gone. And also, the old myth that I grew up with in gym classes, in PE classes, in the '60s, no pain, no gain. In running, you don't want pain. So, I know that's a myth. I'm 100% positive. So, I think those are some myths that came to my mind.
Dr. Ellora Maggs: So, running is not bad for your knees. It is not unhealthy as you're aging and that no pain no gain is not something that you should employ with this sport.
Dr. Kevin Maggs: Which certainly backs up with what all the research shows. The research shows that on longitudinal studies, we follow a group of runners versus a group of non-runners, you know. There's less knee pain progression in the runners and there's less progression of radiological evidence of arthritis in the runners. And so, that fits with what the research says for sure. And to put it in perspective, we haven't talked about this, but John at 72 was running over 100 miles in a week, you know, which is insane that a lot of people can't do that to begin with. But at 72, that's certainly a feat. That's incredible.
Dr. Ellora Maggs: It's a testament to your health.
Dr. Kevin Maggs: And the knees were just holding up fine. In fact, you know, we could argue that if you progress slow enough, the cartilage and the bones and the muscles all adapt by load and they get stronger as you continue to run. It's not a wear and tear thing for the knees as people may anticipate. It's an adaptation to the load. So, things actually get stronger, which allows you to run 100 miles in a week at 72, which is incredible.
Dr. Ellora Maggs: Absolutely. And just back to the research, there is good research showing there's almost a protective effect also, so that running through the lifespan and, you know, and it doesn't have to be running, but just having some kind of bouncy form of exercise in your life is protective on the articular cartilage. And so, rather than the wear and tear model of how we see, like, a mechanical model, like a car tire will wear out the more miles that you run on it. Our bodies luckily don't work like that. And there's actually a protective mechanism that the more you do, as long as you're smart about your training plan, the healthier your body will be.
Dr. Kevin Maggs: Right. Yeah. And just to be clear, the point of this interview is not that if you wanna reap the benefits, you have to run Boston, or you have to run 100 miles a week. You can start running and just running a few miles a week. I've had lots of patients with arthritis and we gradually progress them into just a few miles a week of running. And there's a noticeable benefit that they feel with that. So, it's not a binary decision of, oh, well, I have to do a marathon or not. I mean, we can do lots of shades of gray in the middle, for sure.
Dr. Ellora Maggs: Moderation is acceptable.
Dr. Kevin Maggs: Sure.
Dr. Ellora Maggs: So, John, what do you like about running? What makes you tick with running that you wanna run 100 miles?
John: Well, I love running because it's simple. As I get older, I like just basic, things more basic. And if I can phrase this in a proper way, I can run anywhere, when I'm on vacation, when I'm at home, basically in any weather. And this is very important to me because of the fact that it allows me to stay in shape the entire year. Entire year I can stay in pretty much top physical condition. And therefore, I can reap the health benefits from running year-round. And this is basically why it's important to me tos run.
Dr. Ellora Maggs: Right. For health. So, tell us a little bit more about that. What do you think running has done for your overall health?
John: Well, I'd like to get a little bit specific here because it's done a lot, and very important. In my late 50s, before I started running, my blood pressure, borderline high. My cholesterol numbers were outta whack. And my doctor said, "You know, John, we should really think about putting you on some medication for both of these issues." They run in my family history. And now my blood pressure is just perfect. My cholesterol numbers are much better. I remember a couple of years ago, I thought I had injured my foot. I went in, had some X-rays taken, doctor looked at the X-rays and said, "Your foot's fine, but you have the bones of a much younger person." He says, "Whatever you're doing, just keep doing it." So, it's been just tremendous improvement of my health. It's a great stress reliever.
Dr. Kevin Maggs: For sure.
John: Great stress reliever. And I really can't explain totally why, but when I'm running, even when I'm running at just an aerobic pace, a slower pace, which is basically 85% of my training, that I'm just pretty much stress-free, things that are bothering me during the day and so on stressful things in my life disappear. They're gone. And I'd just like to continue a little bit about the strength training program that you got me on, Kevin, that I feel allowed me to get up to 100 miles a week in my training. I really believe that that kept me injury-free so I could do that because this is the eighth time I've done Boston. And it was just like night and day that I could get to 100 miles and not being injured at all in no way.
And also, I'd like to say a little bit about since the Boston Marathon, I integrated a circuit training program into my training. And I got this program from a gentleman called Owen Anderson and he wrote a book called "Running Science." It's in that book. And it exercises all areas of my body.
And what it seemed to do was, like, on a six-hour plane flight, my hips would hurt. Even though I was doing running, my hips would hurt. I have to get up like every half hour, sometimes, and move around. When I got on your weight training program and on Owen's circuit training program, just that went away. I can sit for five and six hours on a plane and I don't feel old. I feel fine. I feel like I did 30 years ago, 40 years ago. I never thought that that could diminish because I thought those were just aches and pains of old age. Apparently, they're not because they disappeared.
So, right now I just feel like I have the right balance of these training programs that you guys have helped me on. And I know that one of the huge things of getting older, especially when you have hearing problems like I do, you lose your balance and coordination and you tend to fall more, especially as older folks. And a bad fall when you're running can be disastrous. So, these training programs, especially the weight and the circuit training program have helped me regain my balance, which I didn't think was possible, and my coordination and, really, I haven't fallen in years. I mean, it's just been there, just great improvements in that area.
Dr. Kevin Maggs: That's great. There's certainly a number of benefits that go along with running along with the ones that you mentioned. I mean, there's just a ton of them. There's that old saying of, you know, before starting a physical activity program, you should consult with your doctor. And that should be switched to, before not starting a physical activity program, you should consult with your doctor because the health benefits that go along with running and strengthening things you outline are just incredible, you know, along with the psychologic benefits, as you said, the stress relief, yeah. [crosstalk 00:19:11]
Dr. Ellora Maggs: And it can be intimidating.
Dr. Kevin Maggs: I think it might have saved a lot of marriages out there.
Dr. Ellora Maggs: Absolutely. I think it's intimidating for a lot of people who maybe don't know how to strength train, or don't know how to do the exercises right. And so, like, it sounds like you read that book and you were able to pick up on the exercises. Not everybody feels comfortable with that. And so, I mean, this is why we are here. We have a lot of hats on with different people. And, obviously, the needs that you had in helping you get to where you were are different and unique than some of the needs that other people that have that we work with. But a lot of times, it is just understanding how to do these exercises correctly with good, like, understanding what it's supposed to feel like. So, when you're practicing it on your own at home, you know if it's good or bad, or if you're going too heavy or too light to make changes. And so, yeah, we can absolutely help with all of that
DR. Kevin Maggs: Technique, dosing, like, sets, reps, intensity.
Dr. Ellora Maggs: There is an old school...
Dr. Kevin Maggs: ...that you're gonna be doing it and what would be prescribed for you might be different than what we prescribed for a 25-year-old or somebody who's, you know, struggling with their weight or somebody with other health conditions. Like, there's gonna be variability in all of it for sure.
Dr. Ellora Maggs: And I think going back to the myths, there's a lot of old school, new school when it comes to strength training with running and the science is not unclear. It's very clear what's best for runners and I think there's a little bit of a new school shift on that. Like, I think a lot of people were afraid to go heavy with weight lifting and that's actually what is the most beneficial for a runner. So, when we're talking about performance gains in Boston and all of this, getting you comfortable, lifting heavily and owning that in yourself is really important now. Like, heavy is a very subjective word and it's very relative. But I think feeling comfortable with the moves and how to do it and having the confidence that you're doing the right thing allowed you to, like, move forward with that plan.
John: Yes. And I never thought that I could lift the weights that, Kevin, you had me do in my training program. I didn't think I was capable of doing that without hurting myself, but we started out easy, progressed up. And now when I go to the gym, I just feel comfortable that I'm not gonna hurt myself because I'm doing the reps in the sense that you told me to do. And you guys are just a great resource on that because I have confidence in what you say and I'm doing what you're asking me to do. And, like I say, it's allowed me to do way beyond what I've thought I was capable of doing.
Dr. Kevin Maggs: Yeah. I think when you go to the gym now, there's pretty much not enough weight in the gym for you. So, John, when we talk about all these benefits that you have, and you know, the goals of Boston and you recognize all these benefits, I'm sure there's days when you just don't wanna do it, you know, like everybody else. How do you overcome that feeling on certain days where you just don't feel like running, but then eventually you go do it anyway. What goes through your mind as far as what motivates you to get through those times?
John: Well, I'm self-motivated, I just look at something I wanna do, and Boston is very important to me. It's just, you know, it's just having fun with 30,000 people, almost 30,000 on Patriots Day. Just people that are focused, mostly young folks. There's just harmony there, there's harmony and just a great time, and I wanna continue to be there. And in order to be there, I mean, like you say, I have to qualify and I have to run a certain time to qualify. And so, that motivates me big time. It does. Because I wanna continue to be there. And, you know, my health benefits, I mean, I don't want those to go away, so that's huge. And I'll just, you know, I've been lately, you know, my wife says, "Hey, why don't you get up and run in the morning when it's cooler?" And I say the heat, you know, really the strange...one of the strangest things is I can run at 90-degree weather. You know, wouldn't wanna do, you know, fast tempo runs and stuff for, you know, fast miles or anything, but doing aerobic bases in the heat, doesn't bother me, you know, because of the conditioning.
Dr. Ellora Maggs: You're stronger than me, John. This body doesn't love me.
John: Anyway, no, to me, it's fun. To me, it's all fun and just wanna keep going as long as I can.
Dr. Ellora Maggs:. That's great. That's awesome. So, let's hone in just a little bit. So, last year, 2021, I believe it was, you've done Boston several times, as you said. And you've had this goal of wanting to have a podium finish at Boston. And so, last year, if I get my numbers right here, I think you were fourth place and, you know, ran a 3:38, which is an awesome time. But you had this goal and you wanted to make the podium. And so, this year you got third place, you got on the podium with a time of... yeah, huge...with a time of 3:27. So, you knocked off 11 minutes off of your time in one year. So, one year older on those knees, and yet you ran 11 minutes faster. How did you do it? What did you do differently?
John: Well, I listened to what Kevin said and you.
Dr. Ellora Maggs: Usually good advice.
John: And you. And realized that we are very fortunate in this community to have Kevin and Ellora because you folks know how to train people, how to help me. And when I first met with Kevin, not too many months before the Boston marathon, this last one. And he said something very interesting the first day I walked into the office. He asked me what I had been doing for my training to that point. And I told him...
Dr. Kevin Maggs: I'm afraid of what's about to [inaudible 00:25:25].
John: He said, "John, I can cut 10 minutes off your time." And I didn't say anything, but I did kind of think this guy crazy. Because I had done it so many times, I knew how fast I could run it. And the last three Bostons have been within two minutes of each other. And I trained what I felt was as hard as I could. I just felt those are my times 3:36 to 3:38, that's it. And when he said 10 minutes off I'm thinking, well, let's see what happens. And just kind of what I tell people, just kind of ran by the numbers because they're studies and he showed me, there's all this information. And he compiled these training plans by the numbers basically. And I just did what Kevin asked me to do, that basically how it went down.
Dr. Kevin Maggs: I think you've given me too much credit. You're the one who did the work. You put the work in, you were out there on days, like I said, that you probably didn't want to be out there.
John: I didn't have the information prior to seeing you, Kevin.
Dr. Ellora Maggs: So, that's interesting. So, just, like, I think the biggest difference in your training plan then between last year and this year you had the running miles last year, you were training as hard as you could from a running perspective. So, does it seem like the difference is, like, the strength training and the... like, the adding strength element to your run maybe made you more economical as a runner, maybe more powerful. How would... like, Kevin, chime in here? How would you say?
Dr. Kevin Maggs: [inaudible 00:26:51] slowing the pace down a little bit, right? When we actually slow the pace down, that allows more miles to be done and it improves the aerobic engine. And if we can improve the aerobic engine, then during a 26-mile run, you're gonna be much better off, you know, along with the strength training. I think those were...correct me if I'm wrong. I think those were the two biggest issues that we tackled.
John: Yes. Strength training. Very important. I mean, I had no idea. And one interesting thing is I did 90% of my training for this Boston marathon within a half a mile of my house. Just running on a little road that has a few hills, just, you know, gradual hills, maybe up to about 5%, 6% gradient, up and down, just really three-tenths of a mile out and back run up to 18 miles on that road. Just staying near my house on a private road, it's safe. Just not much traffic to get injured with. And just, I mean, people say, "Well, how'd you do that mentally?" It's just when you get kind of into that zone, it just, "Hey, I'm gonna do this."
Dr. Ellora Maggs: That's great.
Dr. Kevin Maggs: It's not that dissimilar, right? I mean, when you get to the end of the road, you turn around you go back. You need to go run, turn around and go back, which isn't any different than one foot in front of the other repetitively if you're on a long run or a short, it is one foot in front of the other [inaudible 00:28:16].
John: That's what it is.
Dr. Ellora Maggs: I mean, every sport has that, right? Like, a lot of people say with swimming, how could you possibly swim? It's so boring. It's just that middle line underneath you. And you just get in a rhythm and you get in a zone and it's, you know, swim, swim, swim, flip, turn, swim, swim, swim, flip, turn. Every once in a while you change up the stroke, but [inaudible 00:28:31] yeah, absolutely.
John: Another thing, you know, being near my house, just like that, always a bathroom handy. Very, very important to older folks. You know, my wife's there, if she wants to say something or...
Dr. Ellora Maggs: She can. She can always reach you.
John: Yeah, that's right. It's awesome.
Dr. Ellora Maggs: That's good. So, obviously, you're a major inspiration to us, for sure, and to so many people in our community. What advice would you give somebody who's contemplating getting into running no matter their age, but if they're like, "Gosh, this running thing, that seems really interesting." What advice would you give someone who's thinking about that?
John: Well, number one would be something that I didn't have when I started was get the good training plan before you start. From either folks like you or somebody else that can...that knows your physical condition that knows your goals and then get the training plan. And of course, it'll start everybody out easy and geared bigger towards their physical condition. Also, I would say, you know, look at a weight training program to go with it. I just think that helped me immensely which I know there's no doubt. And then the circuit training program more to, you know, just work every part of your body somewhat so that, you know, you don't have the aches and pains.
Dr. Ellora Maggs: So, John, what's your next goal?
John: Well, you know, I felt like these programs that Kevin got me on and so on that allowed me to get up to 100 miles a week and get third in Boston was just something I never dreamed was possible. And when I look at the gentleman that won Boston Marathon this year in my age group, he's only the second person that's ever run a marathon, second person that's over 70 years old that ever ran a marathon under three hours. He ran a 3:10 and he's 74. Gene Dykes is moving into the next age group. He won't have to compete with us, you know. Anyway, it's awesome to think about the things that in the future that could happen.
Dr. Ellora Maggs: Awesome. Great. Well, we'll be here to support you all along the way. Well, thanks again for coming in, John. It's so we love listening to your story and hearing your success and just being on the outskirts of your success is just really awesome for us. So, thanks for coming in and sharing your story. And I am confident that somebody who heard this and is inspired to start running or, you know, those who are already running, getting a little pep in their steps. So, your story's really, really awesome. So, thanks for sharing.
John: You are most welcome.
Dr. Kevin Maggs: Yeah. Thanks for coming in, John. It's been a pleasure to get to know you over the last year, for sure.
John: Thank you for helping me. Much appreciated.
Conclusion: Thanks for listening. We hope you found this talk interesting and entertaining. If you've got a suggestion for a podcast topic, please email us at info@peakperformancecare.com. Until next time.
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